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Main Board => MX tech talk => Topic started by: FastRich on November 28, 2017, 04:19:31 PM
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Just in the beginning stages of troubleshooting but my 2010 530 E/XC died out when I was on the throttle the other day. No warning, never had problems in the past, hadn't been riding very long that day, it had been shut off and restarted several times, it wasn't super hot or anything, but I don't seem to be getting a spark.
I already went after the low hanging fruit. Tried a new plug, checked the kill switch, ignition button, key switch, charged the battery all the way up. It turns over, has compression, getting fuel and all that. I pulled the plug, grounded it and hit the button, and see zero spark.
I read some on thumpertalk and a few guys talk about the crank pulsar or whatever (it seems to have 3 or 4 different names). What I can't really pin down is a solid procedure to check ignition components. What the resistance should be from where to where, where to read what, etc....
Anyone have some insight before I roll the dice on what to replace first?
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Just check for an open on the pickup coil.
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11.15 ohms across the coil. Continuity and 12 ohms across the red w/ white stripe and black w/ red stripe coming from the pulse generator. 100 ohms across the green and red which should be reading resistance across the stator. Almost zero resistance across the yellow and white wires going from the voltage regulator to the pulse generator.
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It's a good thing proride doesn't have a first aid forum. Hard to believe nobody works on bikes anymore. :?
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11.15 ohms across the coil. Continuity and 12 ohms across the red w/ white stripe and black w/ red stripe coming from the pulse generator. 100 ohms across the green and red which should be reading resistance across the stator. Almost zero resistance across the yellow and white wires going from the voltage regulator to the pulse generator.
12 ohms across the pulse gen seems really really low. Normally those are in the 200-500 ohm range, and the alternator windings are normally in the 1-3 ohm range.
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12 ohms across the pulse gen seems really really low. Normally those are in the 200-500 ohm range, and the alternator windings are normally in the 1-3 ohm range.
OK, K ohms makes more sense. I guess I wasn't really paying attention to the range it was on. With that nugget, I can almost assume it would be the pulse gen. My fan was hammered too so I got it all on order yesterday. If it's not the coil or the pulse gen., it can only be the stator or the CDI. The voltage reg. shouldn't be a player in getting jolts to the plug right?
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Do you have a schematic? the service manual should have one? Sounds like you know a thing or two about electircal circuits but Ive found the weirdest electrical issues almost always ended up being a poor ground connection OR a short to ground.... pin hole in the insulation or a wire rubbed against the frame long enough to wear down the insulation
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Do you have a schematic? the service manual should have one? Sounds like you know a thing or two about electircal circuits but Ive found the weirdest electrical issues almost always ended up being a poor ground connection OR a short to ground.... pin hole in the insulation or a wire rubbed against the frame long enough to wear down the insulation
There is a schematic but it's minimal help in this situation. I checked all the little stuff first. I have juice flowing, just no spark.
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I was right and wrong the first time. The green and red wires are the pulse gen. both the new and old one read 100 ohms across the leads which pretty much tells me that isn't the problem. :x The coil is also not the problem. Resistance across the stator (red with white chaser and black with red chaser) is 12 ohms. Ideas on where to go next?
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I was right and wrong the first time. The green and red wires are the pulse gen. both the new and old one read 100 ohms across the leads which pretty much tells me that isn't the problem. :x The coil is also not the problem. Resistance across the stator (red with white chaser and black with red chaser) is 12 ohms. Ideas on where to go next?
I just spent about 20 minutes looking at the KTM schematics. They run a multiple stage alternator. One side runs the ignition, the other runs the charging, lights etc.
But they run pretty much everything through that horn, lights etc switch and then over to the start switch. Problem is, the drawing I found doesn't show the connections within the switches, but I'm not seeing anything short of the switch accidentally grounding the kill button portion, the switch probably isn't the issue, but its easy enough to verify. Check for continuity from the Black yellow wire out of that switch to ground. If its open, with the button NOT pushed, its not the problem. If you read any kind of resistance there, the switch just got dirty and the CDI thinks the kill button is pushed. The brown wires are all ground.
This is the drawing I used. I didn't know what year your bike was, so I kinda had to wing it. Unless the bike is EFI, most of the wiring doesn't change much.
(https://4strokes.com/download/file.php?id=527&sid=00e6adaca7583ba5b7b296a8c27fd7ec&mode=view)
Short of that, with the readings you found on the stator portion that runs the CDI, I'd expect the stator to be ok, but we don't really have that particular spec, but 12 ohms is enough Id think, which leaves the CDI.
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The "kill switch" if you want to call it that is a 2 position switch with a blue and a brown wire. The switch itself is good to at least the first connector. Could possibly have a ground or break in the spaghetti that is under the computer/display. I'm going to investigate that fully. The more I eliminate, the closer I get to the CDI. I'm still trying to understand if the voltage reg. has any bearing at all on ignition spark.
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The "kill switch" if you want to call it that is a 2 position switch with a blue and a brown wire. The switch itself is good to at least the first connector. Could possibly have a ground or break in the spaghetti that is under the computer/display. I'm going to investigate that fully. The more I eliminate, the closer I get to the CDI. I'm still trying to understand if the voltage reg. has any bearing at all on ignition spark.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, the voltage regulator should only be managing DC voltage to the DC system on the bike, so that the battery doesn't get over charged, lights burn out etc. The ignition system is an AC system separate from the DC system so I wouldn't think it's a factor. Current flowing out of the stator is AC, then goes to a rectifier to be changed to DC, then to the voltage regulator, then to the bike's 12V DC equipment-battery, lights, instruments, etc.
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, the voltage regulator should only be managing DC voltage to the DC system on the bike, so that the battery doesn't get over charged, lights burn out etc. The ignition system is an AC system separate from the DC system so I wouldn't think it's a factor. Current flowing out of the stator is AC, then goes to a rectifier to be changed to DC, then to the voltage regulator, then to the bike's 12V DC equipment-battery, lights, instruments, etc.
I think you are correct. I'm still getting no spark and I've checked basically everything to ground in an effort to eliminate that as a possibility.
Battery is new and fully charged, Coil is new Spark Plug is new, Switches are good and functioning properly. Turn signals work, horn works, bike turns over when the starter button is pushed.
When you hold the button down and the bike is cranking, both the small bulb (they call it a parking light) and the main element illuminate and kind of pulse following the cranking of the engine. This makes me believe the generator is producing power and the regulator/rectifier is functioning.
Now to the pulse generator. To my knowledge, other bikes don't use this or at least not in the same form. Is the function of the pulse gen. to create a dedicated AC signal for the ignition?
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, the voltage regulator should only be managing DC voltage to the DC system on the bike, so that the battery doesn't get over charged, lights burn out etc. The ignition system is an AC system separate from the DC system so I wouldn't think it's a factor. Current flowing out of the stator is AC, then goes to a rectifier to be changed to DC, then to the voltage regulator, then to the bike's 12V DC equipment-battery, lights, instruments, etc.
I think you are correct. I'm still getting no spark and I've checked basically everything to ground in an effort to eliminate that as a possibility.
Battery is new and fully charged, Coil is new Spark Plug is new, Switches are good and functioning properly. Turn signals work, horn works, bike turns over when the starter button is pushed.
When you hold the button down and the bike is cranking, both the small bulb (they call it a parking light) and the main element illuminate and kind of pulse following the cranking of the engine. This makes me believe the generator is producing power and the regulator/rectifier is functioning.
Now to the pulse generator. To my knowledge, other bikes don't use this or at least not in the same form. Is the function of the pulse gen. to create a dedicated AC signal for the ignition?
I'm not super sure on the current coming out of the pulse gen, I'm assuming it's AC. There are 4 wires coming out of the generator section going to the CDI. Two come from the pulser coil, and the other two go directly to the CDI. At some point, I would want to make sure there is juice coming from those two wires to ensure the ignition side of the generator is working. You should see juice on those wires at cranking speed.
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The pulse gen is, in deed, an AC signal. You'd need a meter with a REC (record mode) to test the pulse gen output when cranking more than likely. While cranking, the pulse is going to be a blip that most digital multi meters wont see, or be able to react to, quickly enough for you to see. If you've got an old analog meter around, you may see the needle spike a tad, which is usually enough. Most of the time, those pulse gens only put out from .4 to 1.5 volts to trigger the transistors in the ignition.
The four wires off the stator are (2) for the charging circuit that go to the rectifier that charge the batter and run the lights, the other 2 go straight to the ECU to run that and fire the coil. It's probably rectified internally also.
At cranking speed, you can probably measure the AC coming off the stator for the CDI and the charging circuits. Doing so isn't a bad idea, more data is always good.
But it's looking more and more like the CDI failed. Unfortunately, its an expensive experiment. But even the damn factory service manuals will say "replace with known good unit" to test it.
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The "kill switch" if you want to call it that is a 2 position switch with a blue and a brown wire. The switch itself is good to at least the first connector. Could possibly have a ground or break in the spaghetti that is under the computer/display. I'm going to investigate that fully. The more I eliminate, the closer I get to the CDI. I'm still trying to understand if the voltage reg. has any bearing at all on ignition spark.
If your bike is wired like that schematic I posted, No. The reg wont impact the ignition circuits at all. The way the bike above is wired, it should run without a battery or the reg even installed if you bumped or kick started it.
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If your bike is wired like that schematic I posted, No. The reg wont impact the ignition circuits at all. The way the bike above is wired, it should run without a battery or the reg even installed if you bumped or kick started it.
Yes, that schematic is fairly close to what I have. Just some minor differences but I have the correct one for my bike. I've had a pretty much dead battery and been able to kick start it just fine.
Checking voltage from the pulse gen while cranking I get basically nothing. The resistance reading is correct but it's not making much if any electricity. The generator seems to be making power.
Gotta pull the damn flywheel to get to the wire for the pulse gen. to get it out because it runs behind it. :x
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If your bike is wired like that schematic I posted, No. The reg wont impact the ignition circuits at all. The way the bike above is wired, it should run without a battery or the reg even installed if you bumped or kick started it.
Yes, that schematic is fairly close to what I have. Just some minor differences but I have the correct one for my bike. I've had a pretty much dead battery and been able to kick start it just fine.
Checking voltage from the pulse gen while cranking I get basically nothing. The resistance reading is correct but it's not making much if any electricity. The generator seems to be making power.
Gotta pull the damn flywheel to get to the wire for the pulse gen. to get it out because it runs behind it. :x
unplug the pulse gen and kick it. If the CDI is toast, it could be shorted on a diode internally and be killing the output of the pulse gen. It'll be an AC signal, like I said, it'll be a tiny blip. Hopefully your meter can record the reading and hold it.
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Sell it and buy a new bike.
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A pulse generator is a very passive device, not likely to fail. Are you sure the "new" plug you tried was actually new?
Know any real tough guys who are into pain, or owe you a huge favor? Have one stick a screwdriver in the plug socket while you crank it. If they scream like a little girl its a bad plug. If they're still a tough guy replace the CDI unit.
Solid procedure right there! :D
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A pulse generator is a very passive device, not likely to fail. Are you sure the "new" plug you tried was actually new?
Know any real tough guys who are into pain, or owe you a huge favor? Have one stick a screwdriver in the plug socket while you crank it. If they scream like a little girl its a bad plug. If they're still a tough guy replace the CDI unit.
Solid procedure right there! :D
Definitely not the plug. I've been down that road before. I've verified with two new plugs and an old "known good".
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Like I said, that pulse gen only makes about .7 to 1.5 volts total even at 9000 rpm. And it's an AC signal coming directly off the pick up.
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Pulled the flywheel, replaced the pulse gen with a new one, put everything back together and still no spark. Beyond irritating at this point. I have to believe it's the CDI or some ridiculous ground I can't find. I've never had such an utterly idiotic experience with a dirt bike ignition. Get your effing shit together KTM! No Japanese bike I've ever owned in 20 plus years has given me a 1 second of serious electrical trouble! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
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Pulled the flywheel, replaced the pulse gen with a new one, put everything back together and still no spark. Beyond irritating at this point. I have to believe it's the CDI or some ridiculous ground I can't find. I've never had such an utterly idiotic experience with a dirt bike ignition. Get your effing shit together KTM! No Japanese bike I've ever owned in 20 plus years has given me a 1 second of serious electrical trouble! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
So you are absolutely sure the ignition side of generator is making juice for the CDI?
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Pulled the flywheel, replaced the pulse gen with a new one, put everything back together and still no spark. Beyond irritating at this point. I have to believe it's the CDI or some ridiculous ground I can't find. I've never had such an utterly idiotic experience with a dirt bike ignition. Get your effing shit together KTM! No Japanese bike I've ever owned in 20 plus years has given me a 1 second of serious electrical trouble! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
So you are absolutely sure the ignition side of generator is making juice for the CDI?
I get volts when I put a meter on the connectors and press the start button as it turns over. I guess I drop $200 on a CDI and see if it works. If not I replace the gen. After that if it doesn't run I fill the tank with gas and light it.
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Pulled the flywheel, replaced the pulse gen with a new one, put everything back together and still no spark. Beyond irritating at this point. I have to believe it's the CDI or some ridiculous ground I can't find. I've never had such an utterly idiotic experience with a dirt bike ignition. Get your effing shit together KTM! No Japanese bike I've ever owned in 20 plus years has given me a 1 second of serious electrical trouble! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
So you are absolutely sure the ignition side of generator is making juice for the CDI?
I get volts when I put a meter on the connectors and press the start button as it turns over. I guess I drop $200 on a CDI and see if it works. If not I replace the gen. After that if it doesn't run I fill the tank with gas and light it.
Sounds good to me.
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For sale “ran fine when I parked it a year ago” .......
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Edit: I looked at the manual and forgive me if you already tried this. Unplug/disconnect ignition switch?Disconnect kill switch also? Battery still at 12 volts? Pull spark plug boot off and check wires there?
How frustrating, hope you figure it out before you drop the Grenade.
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You get this thing fixed yet? If so, it was probably the CDI.
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You get this thing fixed yet? If so, it was probably the CDI.
Not yet. I've been out of town for a week and a half. Gonna get back after it this week.
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You get this thing fixed yet? If so, it was probably the CDI.
Not yet. I've been out of town for a week and a half. Gonna get back after it this week.
Maybe American Airlines can give you some maintenance tips.
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Maybe American Airlines can give you some maintenance tips.
:lol: I fly alot and I gotta say that was by far the worst display of ineptitude from any airline I've seen yet.
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Finally got this thing to fire tonight. Long story longer...it was the stator (generator). I decided to roll the dice since it was down to that or the CDI. My rational was that I want to put a better light on it anyway and I would've had to buy a new stator for that eventually so I went with a high output one from Ricky Stator. Mine was making power and read 11 ohms but I learned that only one pole is for the ignition. Stoked I got it going again. It's nice having a dirt bike with a plate but that much electrical crap is semi-irritating.
The stator itself was plug and play but I'm not super stoked with the included voltage regulator/rectifier. It requires some extra wiring and is far from being a clean install. I like everything neat and perfect and the new one is definitely not. It added a run straight to the battery, bypassed the stock regulator/rectifier connector and dead ends a wire in the harness.
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The Ricky Stator regulator will handle the extra current that his stator will make. It would have cooked the OEM regulator.
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The Ricky Stator regulator will handle the extra current that his stator will make. It would have cooked the OEM regulator.
Not to mention that it is probably a 12vdc regulator.
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The Ricky Stator regulator will handle the extra current that his stator will make. It would have cooked the OEM regulator.
Not to mention that it is probably a 12vdc regulator.
Yep. Now I can run a good LED bulb or light. The stock headlight on that thing is hot garbage! I already had the cleanup kit for the rear and since I was knee deep in the wiring anyway, I tossed the front signals and switched them to the Sicass racing integrated handguard ones. Cleaned it up quite a bit. I had to get the LED flasher and instead of dicking around with the inline resistors, I just removed the bulb from the green indicator light since you can't even see it with a bar pad anyway.
I ran it and rode it a bit and the fan never came on so I replaced the thermoswitch with the new one that came with the new fan. I ran it last night and the fan still never came on when I felt like it should. The fan works and there is power to the thermoswitch. I can jumper it and it comes on so I know it's something with the switch itself or I just didn't let it get hot enough. I read up on it a bit and it seems like lots of guys just put in a switch since the thermoswitches seem to be very unreliable. Alot of them also remove the thermostat. Trail Tech sells a thermostat delete kit but Blais Racing sells just a spacer/o-ring that you put in when you take it out. My plan is to wire in a small switch that will be in tandem with the thermoswitch and remove the thermostat. Dirt bikes shouldn't have thermostats anyway! I will be able to turn the fan on and off with the switch and the thermoswitch will also be able to function to turn it on if I forget to or whatever. I'll take a few pics of everything when I do it tomorrow night. I already picked up the switch but I don't have the connectors I thought I did so I gotta grab them after work tomorrow.
The switch for the fan is probably not necessary but I will allow me to have full control over the system.
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If youve got one of those laser thermometers, you'd be blown away by how hot the radiators DONT get. Ideally, you want the coolant to run 180-190F. I dont know about that bike specifically, some will push coolant past the cap at that temp with the rads filled all the way up. But only enough to create the correct air space in the radiators. Pull the thermostat, it could run 130 on a cold day, which is bad. Most oils dont even work correctly until they're 180ish. Most of the time, if there's sufficient air flow, the engine temps will typically run 100F+ ambient. 90F outside, + the 100, engine temps are perfect. Sit trail side for 10 minutes bullshiting...with the engine running and it over heats...well ya... :lol:
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Agree, too much electrical with these bikes. Have the same bike but an 08, and all of a sudden it is blowing starter fuses, been chasing this for a few days now. Thankfully it has a kick starter so I wasn't stranded out trail riding last weekend.
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Well it was too late for this but, I have a O'scope you can capture AC.
So how are these? I might be picking up a 450EXC (RFS) it's a 2005 with 2700 miles. Bone stock.
I will plate it, but how are these on the road. I won't commute on it, but my dual sport trips we need to occasionally hope on the freeway, or highway. I could careless about going fast. But if we need to ride say from Lark, McCain valley back to Ramona. So on the 8 for 20ish miles, then surface streets. Would it pump itself dry losing oil out of the vent? I know they are 6 speeds so it's way better than my plated YZ450
Thanks
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For what you want to do, they are fine on the road, even with decent "off road" gearing. I only use mine for desert and single track, with some occasional pavement use, so not a lot of on road experience with it. At speed on the road it wobbles pretty bad, but I think this can be improved with the addition of properly placed wheel weights and a more DS type of tire. That sounds like a bitchin bike, lot of people rave about those RFS motors. I need to get some info from you as we are going to try to plate my brothers 01 WR426 one of these days.
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For what you want to do, they are fine on the road, even with decent "off road" gearing. I only use mine for desert and single track, with some occasional pavement use, so not a lot of on road experience with it. At speed on the road it wobbles pretty bad, but I think this can be improved with the addition of properly placed wheel weights and a more DS type of tire. That sounds like a bitchin bike, lot of people rave about those RFS motors. I need to get some info from you as we are going to try to plate my brothers 01 WR426 one of these days.
Thanks, sure hit me up anytime