KTM 530 E/XC died, no spark

[FastRich]

Just in the beginning stages of troubleshooting but my 2010 530 E/XC died out when I was on the throttle the other day. No warning, never had problems in the past, hadn't been riding very long that day, it had been shut off and restarted several times, it wasn't super hot or anything, but I don't seem to be getting a spark.

I already went after the low hanging fruit. Tried a new plug, checked the kill switch, ignition button, key switch, charged the battery all the way up. It turns over, has compression, getting fuel and all that. I pulled the plug, grounded it and hit the button, and see zero spark.
I read some on thumpertalk and a few guys talk about the crank pulsar or whatever (it seems to have 3 or 4 different names). What I can't really pin down is a solid procedure to check ignition components. What the resistance should be from where to where, where to read what, etc....

Anyone have some insight before I roll the dice on what to replace first?

[flipside]

Just check for an open on the pickup coil.

[FastRich]

11.15 ohms across the coil. Continuity and 12 ohms across the red w/ white stripe and black w/ red stripe coming from the pulse generator. 100 ohms across the green and red which should be reading resistance across the stator. Almost zero resistance across the yellow and white wires going from the voltage regulator to the pulse generator.

[FastRich]

It's a good thing proride doesn't have a first aid forum. Hard to believe nobody works on bikes anymore. 

[Shamus]

11.15 ohms across the coil. Continuity and 12 ohms across the red w/ white stripe and black w/ red stripe coming from the pulse generator. 100 ohms across the green and red which should be reading resistance across the stator. Almost zero resistance across the yellow and white wires going from the voltage regulator to the pulse generator.

12 ohms across the pulse gen seems really really low. Normally those are in the 200-500 ohm range, and the alternator windings are normally in the 1-3 ohm range.

[FastRich]

12 ohms across the pulse gen seems really really low. Normally those are in the 200-500 ohm range, and the alternator windings are normally in the 1-3 ohm range.

OK, K ohms makes more sense. I guess I wasn't really paying attention to the range it was on. With that nugget, I can almost assume it would be the pulse gen. My fan was hammered too so I got it all on order yesterday. If it's not the coil or the pulse gen., it can only be the stator or the CDI. The voltage reg. shouldn't be a player in getting jolts to the plug right?
 

[5e4r6t]

Do you have a schematic? the service manual should have one? Sounds like you know a thing or two about electircal circuits but Ive found the weirdest electrical issues almost always ended up being a poor ground connection OR a short to ground.... pin hole in the insulation or a wire rubbed against the frame long enough to wear down the insulation

 

[FastRich]

Do you have a schematic? the service manual should have one? Sounds like you know a thing or two about electircal circuits but Ive found the weirdest electrical issues almost always ended up being a poor ground connection OR a short to ground.... pin hole in the insulation or a wire rubbed against the frame long enough to wear down the insulation

There is a schematic but it's minimal help in this situation. I checked all the little stuff first. I have juice flowing, just no spark.

[FastRich]

I was right and wrong the first time. The green and red wires are the pulse gen. both the new and old one read 100 ohms across the leads which pretty much tells me that isn't the problem.  The coil is also not the problem. Resistance across the stator (red with white chaser and black with red chaser) is 12 ohms. Ideas on where to go next?

[Shamus]

I was right and wrong the first time. The green and red wires are the pulse gen. both the new and old one read 100 ohms across the leads which pretty much tells me that isn't the problem.  The coil is also not the problem. Resistance across the stator (red with white chaser and black with red chaser) is 12 ohms. Ideas on where to go next?

I just spent about 20 minutes looking at the KTM schematics. They run a multiple stage alternator. One side runs the ignition, the other runs the charging, lights etc.

But they run pretty much everything through that horn, lights etc switch and then over to the start switch. Problem is, the drawing I found doesn't show the connections within the switches, but I'm not seeing anything short of the switch accidentally grounding the kill button portion, the switch probably isn't the issue, but its easy enough to verify. Check for continuity from the Black yellow wire out of that switch to ground. If its open, with the button NOT pushed, its not the problem. If you read any kind of resistance there, the switch just got dirty and the CDI thinks the kill button is pushed. The brown wires are all ground.

This is the drawing I used. I didn't know what year your bike was, so I kinda had to wing it. Unless the bike is EFI, most of the wiring doesn't change much.



Short of that, with the readings you found on the stator portion that runs the CDI, I'd expect the stator to be ok, but we don't really have that particular spec, but 12 ohms is enough Id think, which leaves the CDI.   

[FastRich]

The "kill switch" if you want to call it that is a 2 position switch with a blue and a brown wire. The switch itself is good to at least the first connector. Could possibly have a ground or break in the spaghetti that is under the computer/display. I'm going to investigate that fully. The more I eliminate, the closer I get to the CDI. I'm still trying to understand if the voltage reg. has any bearing at all on ignition spark.

[ChuckMoto]

The "kill switch" if you want to call it that is a 2 position switch with a blue and a brown wire. The switch itself is good to at least the first connector. Could possibly have a ground or break in the spaghetti that is under the computer/display. I'm going to investigate that fully. The more I eliminate, the closer I get to the CDI. I'm still trying to understand if the voltage reg. has any bearing at all on ignition spark.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, the voltage regulator should only be managing DC voltage to the DC system on the bike, so that the battery doesn't get over charged, lights burn out etc. The ignition system is an AC system separate from the DC system so I wouldn't think it's a factor. Current flowing out of the stator is AC, then goes to a rectifier to be changed to DC, then to the voltage regulator, then to the bike's 12V DC equipment-battery, lights, instruments, etc.

[FastRich]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, the voltage regulator should only be managing DC voltage to the DC system on the bike, so that the battery doesn't get over charged, lights burn out etc. The ignition system is an AC system separate from the DC system so I wouldn't think it's a factor. Current flowing out of the stator is AC, then goes to a rectifier to be changed to DC, then to the voltage regulator, then to the bike's 12V DC equipment-battery, lights, instruments, etc.

I think you are correct. I'm still getting no spark and I've checked basically everything to ground in an effort to eliminate that as a possibility.

Battery is new and fully charged, Coil is new Spark Plug is new, Switches are good and functioning properly. Turn signals work, horn works, bike turns over when the starter button is pushed.

When you hold the button down and the bike is cranking, both the small bulb (they call it a parking light) and the main element illuminate and kind of pulse following the cranking of the engine. This makes me believe the generator is producing power and the regulator/rectifier is functioning.

Now to the pulse generator. To my knowledge, other bikes don't use this or at least not in the same form. Is the function of the pulse gen. to create a dedicated AC signal for the ignition? 

[ChuckMoto]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, the voltage regulator should only be managing DC voltage to the DC system on the bike, so that the battery doesn't get over charged, lights burn out etc. The ignition system is an AC system separate from the DC system so I wouldn't think it's a factor. Current flowing out of the stator is AC, then goes to a rectifier to be changed to DC, then to the voltage regulator, then to the bike's 12V DC equipment-battery, lights, instruments, etc.

I think you are correct. I'm still getting no spark and I've checked basically everything to ground in an effort to eliminate that as a possibility.

Battery is new and fully charged, Coil is new Spark Plug is new, Switches are good and functioning properly. Turn signals work, horn works, bike turns over when the starter button is pushed.

When you hold the button down and the bike is cranking, both the small bulb (they call it a parking light) and the main element illuminate and kind of pulse following the cranking of the engine. This makes me believe the generator is producing power and the regulator/rectifier is functioning.

Now to the pulse generator. To my knowledge, other bikes don't use this or at least not in the same form. Is the function of the pulse gen. to create a dedicated AC signal for the ignition?

I'm not super sure on the current coming out of the pulse gen, I'm assuming it's AC. There are 4 wires coming out of the generator section going to the CDI. Two come from the pulser coil, and the other two go directly to the CDI. At some point, I would want to make sure there is juice coming from those two wires to ensure the ignition side of the generator is working. You should see juice on those wires at cranking speed.

[Shamus]

The pulse gen is, in deed, an AC signal. You'd need a meter with a REC (record mode) to test the pulse gen output when cranking more than likely. While cranking, the pulse is going to be a blip that most digital multi meters wont see, or be able to react to, quickly enough for you to see. If you've got an old analog meter around, you may see the needle spike a tad, which is usually enough. Most of the time, those pulse gens only put out from .4 to 1.5 volts to trigger the transistors in the ignition.

The four wires off the stator are (2) for the charging circuit that go to the rectifier that charge the batter and run the lights, the other 2 go straight to the ECU to run that and fire the coil. It's probably rectified internally also.

At cranking speed, you can probably measure the AC coming off the stator for the CDI and the charging circuits. Doing so isn't a bad idea, more data is always good.

But it's looking more and more like the CDI failed. Unfortunately, its an expensive experiment. But even the damn factory service manuals will say "replace with known good unit" to test it.